Official Luthiers Forum!

I recently put everything together to attend a class with Charles Fox, the 5 day Contemporary Guitar Making course. As I am about to send the deposit in, it struck me that for the $$, I could buy every book and DVD on the topic of guitar making.

I have a woodworking back ground, built 2 guitars that came out well for #1 and 2, and at some point (however many practice builds it takes) would like to sell guitars that I build. My thinking in taking the course is that the information will be sufficient that in the future I can sell a guitar that I know is within professional standards and won't fall apart. I would hope that it would act something like a credential in dealing with a future client, personally I would rather hear, "I studied with Charles Fox" rather then, "I have read lots of books".

The question: what are the pros and cons of learning in a Master's shop vs. reading and videos. Which path is shorter to holding a guitar that both the builder and the client will be comfortable and confident with the sale.

In the end, I am hoping to be talked into taking the class and that it is money well spent.

Thanks,
Rob

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It doesn't look like you actually build a guitar with the 5 day course, it simply gives you an overview in person. I'd rather buy the books and have the information stored in a library for review any time, versus a 5 day course that rushes you through everything in a 5 day period, and hopefully you can retain it all.

The $3500 2 week hands-on guitar building course looks more like what I think you are looking for, even though it's a group setting, and the emphasis seems to be also on jigs and fixtures. Wen you are done you will have a guitar in your hands that you can say Charles Fox taught you to build, and people can play it.

William Cumpiano offers a 2 week, one on one guitar building tutorial that is $5000, and it is just you and him, and he teaches you everything start to finish, one on one, emphasizing hand tools and methods for the small shop with a minimum of jigs and fixtures.

John Hall of BLues Creek Guitars also offers a one on one building course.

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The ability to retain all the info is a concern. The course includes a notebook that is prepared by the school so we can take info home, and we are welcome to photo and measure anything in the shop.

I think the 5 day class is pretty well suited for folks like me as opposed to a full hands on build. I have most of the tools already, plenty of experience making jigs and using tools. Having built 2, I have the knowledge and tools to build, but I want to know that I am on track to learning how to be building well.

I do understand that a 5 day class does not make one a luthier, but hopefully on a good path to becoming one.

In terms of classes available, I am on the west coast and would like to be able to drive. My other option was a class with Harry Fleishman, but he is taking time off from teaching for another project. Somogyi is close, but that is a different price point.
Rob

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I think mostly courses are good for people who don't learn well on their own or from books. And they are also really inspiring/fun. If you are a good self-learner, you can get a lot further on your own, and you may go somewhere a little more personal. But that just isn't an option for some people. It probably has a lot to do with learning styles. My own experience is that most of the up to date stuff is on the net, not in books, of DVDs. Magazines and courses can be good, but both are costly for the unit of info. The real measure at a practical level, is how much information you took away with you, and one year from now how many of those tricks and jigs did you actually pick up on. That depends in the quality of the info, but also on the student. If you are either restless or creative, you very well may not use any of the info, long term. But some people might rely on it heavily.

I have heard nothing but good stuff about the Fox course. I would have gone to his basic jigs course if I was looking for entertainment, or money really wasn't an object. When I first heard about the course, I thought it sounded pretty cool, but today, there is probably a better way to do anything he suggest, better for you anyway. You can see a lot of his jigs on the Frets site, and you can figure out how he would attack a problem. The current course seems to have made a conscious effort to create a compact approach for the small lutherie shop, I bet a lot of people would find that useful.

I think you also have to give some thought to how you want to build. Does the guy you want to study under build the kind of instruments you want to, and are his methods applicable to the way you want to build. Charles for instance builds classical guitars, but he builds them "efficiently" not traditionally. For me to pick up on that would require me to be comfortable both with the building method and the marketing level required. I think it was Fox who said the advantage of his kind of method was to be able to do two guitars a week rather than one. I'm not sure that will fit with what everyone wants to do.

I don't think there is a credential advantage myself. It is amazing how naive clients are when they meet a luthier. Professional musicians for the most part know little about some of the technicalities, and are also adrift when they run into the luthier compact, what we as a group find important. One year we are talking about spraying stuff, next about wiping it with bugs. So once you get your guitars to a point where you want to sell them, it is likely your competence will shine through. Most people haven't heard of Fox, so saying you studied with him just indicates you don't have the confidence to hold yourself out, and are relying on the reputation of the person your perspective client should probably really be buying their guitar from. Don't get me wrong clients are very smart, and knowledgeable. Their perspective isn't about the same stuff, is all. These days anyone can make a guitar so if they really wanted to know all that stuff they would already.

As an instructor -- and someone who learned with no formal lutherie education -- my thinking is this:

If you want to spend many years teaching yourself, go for it.
If you want to build good guitars rather than teaching yourself lutherie, take classes.
If you want to watch TV, there are many good shows on but they won't make you a luthier.

I learn from books, from DVDs, from talking with other builders and repair techs, and from doing. All are good, none is sufficient by itself.

But I learned more in a week-long workshop with Tom Ribbecke and Linda Manzer than I had in the previous five years of reading, talking, watching, and building on my own. Even now, after twenty years and 200 guitars, I continue to learn from my associations with other builders and repair techs. Would I learn from a week with Charles Fox? Yes. With the deJonges? Definitely. From Ervin? Yes again. From another book or DVD? Maybe, a little, one or two things or ways of thinking. But I don't expect to learn anything substantial from a book -- our language is just too limited in describing tone. You have to listen to the wood, hear the changes, and work with an experienced, thoughtful luthier to really get it. Ask any of the superb luthiers out there.

Another thought. We live in a time when there are more and better luthiers working than in any previous age. Doesn't it make sense to learn in person from them, given the chance?

As someone who has taken this very class from Charles I would say do it. I've taken two classes from him and both were absolutely wonderful experiences. Aside from what you get from the class (things I can almost guarantee you won't find in a book or video) you will see his remarkable shop and enjoy some of the most interesting and entertaining lectures you're likely to hear anywhere. Charles is old school when it comes to sharing information: if he knows how to do it he'll tell/show you. If he doesn't, he'll try and figure it out with you. You'll find that he has no secrets. If you're looking to fill in some holes in your education or some inspiration this is a great place to start.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I think Charles' perspective of efficiency in the build echoes my own small production shop experience. I also like the elevated fingerboard on the flat top. On the school's website Charles give some advise on choosing a school.

Rick, you have me sold. Thanks.

Todd, that really has been my thinking up until last week. I figured I would build 1-5 with my primitive jigs, then get some education and rethink and retool. It is an awkward stage between woodworker and luthier. I would be happy to be ready at guitar #5 or 6 to feel comfortable selling at a student rate, this class will make that much more likely. I think that I have to accept that there will be elements of the class that will go over my head, but I should be able to get most of it. Down the road from this education I think a Ribbecke class would be enticing.

Thanks Adam, exactly what I was hoping to hear.
I will send my deposit in in the morning.

Thanks again for the thoughtful replies,
Rob

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After reading the responses, I might join you...

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Like Rick I also teach and while I feel a class is much better than any book or DVD I learned the most after taking a class with David Nichols . Experience is much better than words and pictures . As a teacher I find that most students that have built a guitar or two seem to have a better grasp of what they need to learn . Also if you do take a class take notes and at the evening think about what you did that day and write down 10 questions . See if you can answer them and then ask the instructor the same questions .
Keep us posted and have fun , that is what this is all about .

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